Suffering = Knowledge?

[Maura Santangelo]

Dear all,

I see that a few comments on suffering and expectations are still
trickling in.  I am impressed by the thoughtful replies which the
thread has generated.  Not surprising I suppose.  After all there is a
religion totally based on the reality of suffering.  Buddha developed a
whole philosophy around the notion of suffering, it is the first of the
4 noble truths, the truth of suffering.  Of the inevitability of
suffering simply because we are born and are impermanent and we never
get what we want, or we lose what we have, or we get what we do not
want.  But the other 3 noble truths also add that there is an end to
suffering, that suffering is self inflicted by desire and hatred and
indifference, and that there is a path to non suffering.  We suffer
because of our expectations, Pieter is quite right about that.

IN this thread we are talking about two different kinds of suffering:
the inevitable that comes out of living and not accepting what life
puts in our way and the gratuitous suffering, the purposely inflicted
suffering based on the idea that by punishing ourselves we become
'better' human beings.  Self inflicted suffering is not ennobling, it
may actually be dehumanizing.  How you can develop compassion toward
fellow humans if you have no compassion toward yourself?  It is
interesting to me how many Western buddhists have difficulty with this
notion.  The Dalai Lama is reported to be quite surprised by the idea
of low self esteem Westerners seem to have, but indeed many of us did
grow up with this idea that we can only make ourselves good by
punishing ourselves in some way.  It is this kind of suffering that
Mary Oliver's poem spoke to so eloquently.

Maura

On Saturday, December 13, 2003, at 11:30 AM, Sally Haden wrote:

> I forget the theology of it,and the full etymology too, but I
> understand
> that when Christ was dying on the cross, he used the word which
> doesn't just
> mean our modern "suffer", it means also "to allow", as in "suffer the
> little
> children to come unto me"...
>
> This makes sense of it for me.  That way, suffering means not
> resisting in a
> harmful way, not denying, not pretending it  (pain etc) doesn't exist.
>  The
> Buddhists are good at explaining this point.  I think it's about having
> compassion for one's self, one's body, for whatever you think is
> causing the
> trouble... It is learning to kind of go round the boulder, or sort of
> embrace it, or to try to sing along with it, then it doesn't take
> hold.  It
> is still there, it is still a fact, but there's something else too -
> one's
> own quiet dignity and humanity, or God for those who prefer to name the
> spirit which carries us through.  It brings grace to the moment.
> Whereas
> outright or sought suffering brings little grace or truth, in the end.