[Gocamino] The Cathedral/Steve

Sun May 20 17:54:22 PDT 2007

The Cathedral in Seville is reputedly the largest church in Christendom outside of Saint Peter's in the Vatican, yet it does not have a nave.... or a cupola, or anything like it.  The ceiling is uniformly very high, and the central part of the huge church is right in the center with an altar on one side and a choir on the other, open all around.  
While the Cathedral has many tombs, the more significant one is that of Christopher Columbus, which happens to be a strikingly beautiful structure in a modern sort of way.  The explorer bones were exhumed a few years ago to ascertain their authenticity, and after months and months of study the most amazing conclusion was that he was definitely not from Italy, but from a northern town in Catalonia. .
(I am not making this up. The History Channel had a program about it, and there is a DVD of all the studies made by the various European scientists that conducted the extensive inquiry.  They also concluded that somehow his remains had been deprived of any skin when brought to Seville from Santo Domingo). 
Nearby, noted only by  commemorative plaques on the floor, his son Diego is also buried, as well as his brother and other members of the Admiral's family.
The Cathedral includes a lovely orange garden/cloister and it does not have any bell towers; its fifty bells are housed in the lovely Giralda which was converted for the purpose from its original use as a minaret....... reportedly the tallest and most beautiful ever built.  The Giralda can be seen from all over. It is so-called because it has, at its very top, a golden figure with a banner that "girates" as a weather ban.  It is easy to climb up the Giralda over its inner ramps... and it is lovely to do so since it has windows all around and one can stop and sit on them and admire the city below.
Hugs!

Rosina

Subject: Re: [Gocamino] The Cathedral/Steve

What a fun conversation!  You have spurred me to check Marilyn Stokstad's 
Medieval Art.  In the glossary it defines
  nave:  Latin:ship central vessel of a church , extending from the entrance to 
the crossing or choir.
  A few entries above that:
  naos:  Greek:  the principal room in a temple... In a Byzantine church the 
naos includes the apse, choir and nave.
  It sounds like the references go both ways.  The Portuguese borrowed back to 
the Greek (or it's a great coincidence) and the Latin church used ship language.
  Stokstad also referred to 4th century chuches using basilica templates.  The 
apse was where the altar was, the end of your visual journey as you entered the 
church and progressed up the nave.  She then states that tombs were added in 
rounded structures where the apse was.  This was a borrowing from mausoleum 
architecture.  The ambulatory went up the aisles of the nave and around the apse 
so that pilgrims could get close to the tomb without interferring with the mass.  
This sounds very familiar!
  So our basilica style churches with tombs are an amalgamation of roman 
basilicas and mausolea and are fourth century adoptions in the Roman Church.  I 
borrowed these ideas from chapter 2 of the above mentioned book.
  Does anyone else have more info?  I love this stuff.
  Bridget

Elcaminomejala at aol.com wrote:

Well Steve, I tell ya, won't be the first nor the last that am told I've 
missed the point about so many things, u wouldn't believe it ! Nonetheless I do 
believe we're talking about architecture, ergo art, not a science, 
subjective. All impressions should have their place in the Lord's garden, vast 
it is. 
But consider this: the Portico de la Glorida is the entrance to a mighty 
tomb. Could be, however simple minded it may sound. Best, xm 

In a message dated 5/20/2007 2:58:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
thesouds at comcast.net writes:

xm,

While the cathedral of Santiago definitely contains a tomb, your 
suggestion entirely misses the semantic point that Mary is making. 
In all churches it's called a nave, whether or not someone is 
entombed there.

I, too, have wondered about the connection between the two words and 
their different usages, and Mary's interpretation sounds plausible at 
the very least. The thought that went into the construction of 
medieval cathedrals, whether through theological symbolism, 
acoustics, etc. was amazing. They were the architectural wonders of 
the age.

Best,

Steve

On May 20, 2007, at 2:39 PM, Elcaminomejala at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Could it be that it's just a tomb, a grandiose tomb? Best, xm
>
> In a message dated 5/20/2007 2:36:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
> mvwallis at pathcom.ca writes:
>
> HI everyone - about the nave as church and nave as ship 
> distinction that
> Rosina referred to. There is a strong medieval tradition or topos 
> of the
> church as a ship carrying the Christian soul across the tossing 
> ocean of
> life to salvation. There are Old Testament references that feed 
> into this,
> e.g., Noah's ark, which was thought in the patristic tradition to 
> prefigure
> the Church of the New Testament, holding. the Christian soul in 
> safety on
> the sea etc etc.... you get the idea. In the patristic literature 
> of the
> early Christian fathers, you are either on the ship or off it. 
> It's bad to
> be off it . In many seacoast churches, especially where there 
> were sailors,
>
> an actual ship replica can be found in the nave. So there is an 
> intentional
> play on words in the two meanings.
>
> Mary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: ; 
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 8:34 AM
> Subject: [Gocamino] Cameras in Santiago
>
>
>> Hello you all,
>> Sil has posted a site that accesses cameras showing views of 
>> three (of
>> the four) squares around the Cathedral, and of the ambulatory 
>> people in
>> them, and of two inside views of the Cathedral.
>> Lovely, evocative and active views of the Quintana, Praterias and
>> Obradeiro squares can be seen. The Quintana view includes the 
>> entrance way
>> to the Holy Door and the door of the Archicofradia's information 
>> office.
>> For some reason, Azabacherias Square is not included (?)
>> Also, the English translation is not precise. The pictures of 
>> the inside
>> of the Cathedral refer to it as the Cathedral's "ship". This is a
>> mistranslation of the word "nave" which, when applied to a 
>> church means
>> the long narrow central hall of a church in a cruciform that 
>> rises higher
>> than the aisles flanking it.
>> While in Spanish the word "nave" also means ship this is not the 
>> meaning
>> intended in the titles of the pictures.
>> (By the way, Columbus' voyage was not made on three caravels; the 
>> Santa
>> Maria was a "nave" which was a larger ship built by the 
>> Portuguese (a
>> "nao") so that its surface and holds would resemble somewhat the 
>> interior
>> of a church; the Pinta and the Nina were carabels, which were 
>> smaller and
>> designed differently).
>> At any rate, the site for the cameras is:
>>
>> http://www.santiagoturismo.com/camaras/
>>
>> Please note that the last word. camaras, is spelled with three 
>> "a"s, which
>> is the spelling in Spanish.
>>
>> Thanks again, Sil. You really are a doll. The pictures and videos 
>> have
>> made me very much aware of my need to go to Santiago for 
>> spiritual nurture
>> and soul-joy. If I didn't have to go to Rio next Tuesday, for 
>> my one
> free
>> week before May 30th, I would take off for Santiago forthwith.
>>
>> And, Grant, thanks for the words to the Hymn that accompanies the
>> Botafumeiro. I had no idea.
>>
>> Hugs!
>>
>> Rosina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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