pre-christian camino, etc.

[Galen Wilkerson]

Karen,

Yes, that is interesting!  Where did you learn this?  Can you point me at
some books?

thanks!
Galen

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 13:57:03 -0600, Karen Mallory <mallkaMTS.NET> wrote:

>Galen, you might be interested to know that quite a few Neanderthal sites
>have been found along the northern and western coast of Spain and
continuing
>down the western coast of Portugal (including one, I believe, that had the
>bones of a four year old child that had characteristics of both Neanderthal
>and homo -oh dear, now I'm in shaky ground here - probably not sapiens but
>one of the earlier modern man predecessors).  Anyway, the distribution of
>the sites is roughly parallel to that of the Camino and implies some sort
of
>travel between them or at least a sequential move from one area to another.
>There is a large, important site outside of Burgos at Atapuerca.
>
>Early on, the  Camino was established at the northern reaches of the
Moorish
>occupation and was intended to bring European materials and culture into
>Spain.  The pilgrims added considerably to this distribution and was,
>eventually, an important contribution to the defeat of the Moors.
>
>Hope this is of interest to you and gives you something to look into.
>
>I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas season which meets whatever needs
>you may have.  Peace.
>
>Karen Mallory
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Galen Wilkerson" <galen_wilkersonaYAHOO.COM>
>To: <GOCAMINOaPETE.URI.EDU>
>Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:13 AM
>Subject: Re: pre-christian camino, etc.
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I certainly don't want to start a religious debate, since I think
everyone
>> is entitled to their own beliefs, and would only ever try to speak for
>> myself :)  However, I'm not particularly religious, and have often been
>> very amazed at nature, history, etc., although it has not had anything to
>> do with either faith or sorcery, as far as I understand those.  Any
>> feeling of 'magic' for me is related to my connection to nature and
>> history as a human animal.  Sometimes the only word for this feeling is
>> something like magic, although it certainly isn't broomsticks etc.
>> haha :)
>>
>> I think one reason people (including me) aren't really into Shirley
Mclain
>> (and I haven't read her book), is that it's seen as hokey nonsense that
>> didn't have to be shared with the world in a book.  Fine for her personal
>> beliefs, etc., but not necessarily something the rest of us _have_ to try
>> to relate to.  I guess it's hard not to have some kind of spiritual
>> experience/feeling on such a walk, and it's up to everyone to find their
>> own way to express it.  If they expect other people to relate to it, they
>> have to do a good job explaining/expressing it.  If they are talking
about
>> things that many people will see as "far out", they have to do a VERY
good
>> job explaining it and relating it to other people's understanding,
>> otherwise it will be seen as hokey nonsense.  I.e. if you are writing
>> poetry or fiction, call it that. :)
>>
>> I didn't really understand Rosina's comment about love as the difference
>> between faith and magic, but that's ok.  I don't think any of us here is
>> trying to start a movement towards one or the other religion, etc. (I'm
>> not) :)  I know that for me personally and for many people I met on the
>> camino, the walk had nothing to do with any "faith" in any Christian
>> sense, and in my opinion, the route was somewhat arbitrary, except for
the
>> fact that this particular route had a history and had some meaning for
>> others.  I.e. I would have continued my walk in the pyrennees if it
hadn't
>> been quite so solitary with such a heavy pack.
>>
>> I'm interested in the camino from a dry non-dramatic
historical /cultural/
>> geographic/ anthropoligical standpoint.  I understand that some people
>> believe a light descended in Santiago, etc.  and others may believe the
>> Camino was pre-christian, magical etc., but I'm not really as interested
>> in that beyond as a cultural phenomenon.
>>
>> I _imagine_ it is hard to find to find evidence about whatever trails,
>> etc. were in northern Spain before christianity appeared.  I also
>> _imagine_ that any such trails were relatively small and sometimes non-
>> existent in comparison to the later huge pilgrimages and pilgrimage
routes
>> to Santiago, etc. from all across Europe.  However, this doesn't mean the
>> early ones didn't exist.  It seems that populations were smaller, and
>> people were not as organized.
>>
>> We know people were there before christianity, I'm not asking a mystical
>> question, I'm asking a factual one, which I can rephrase:
>>
>> What information has been found about trails along the route of the
>modern-
>> day camino de santiago?  Is the camino running along a route that existed
>> beforehand, and if so, what was it used for, etc?
>>
>> Sure, it's hard to find out about such things, but that's part of why
it's
>> interesting to me, and it certainly doesn't mean it was or wasn't there.
>> (i.e. just because I can't see into the box doesn't mean there's nothing
>> in the box, and it also doesn't mean the box has whatever I believe it
>> does in it - so open the box and see!)
>>
>> Also, I agree with Sally that it is _more_ interesting when we add
>> cultural and anthro. context.  For me, I _would_ try to explain the
>> christian history by referring to something prior to it.  Many times,
>> these cultural phenomena do not appear suddenly one day out of thin air,
>> but are incorporated from the past.  I.e.  If there were routes along the
>> current camino- trade, religious or otherwise - it would be interesting
in
>> understanding its coming about.  People in the past (and now) were
>> obviously very mystical, and were willing to believe a light descended
and
>> create a myth in Santiago, and for instance it would be interesting to
>> know if this myth was created by the Church or inhabitants partly to
>> capitalize on trade routes or other trails that already existed.  Maybe
it
>> fit partly with vague history of celtic "holy" places along the coast,
>> together with such trade routes  (For instance, evidently in the bronze
>> age certain metals were available along the coastal mountains that
weren't
>> available in other places.), and when the church came along and changed
>> the social organization, the cultural phenomenon of the camino was a
>> natural result.
>>
>> Yes, all of this is just vague conjecture on my part, but I'm interested
>> in whatever evidence has been found, etc.  Just because I am conjecturing
>> doesn't mean there isn't something to it.  Personally I don't think we
can
>> ever know _exactly_ what things were like in the past (or even in the
>> present), but can try to get a clearer and clearer picture, and that is
>> fun and interesting and valuable.
>>
>> Anyway, I hope I haven't upset anyone.  It's just meant to be a
relatively
>> dry question.
>>
>> best,
>> Galen
>>
>> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:53 +0000, Sally Haden <hadense1948aHOTMAIL.COM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Thanks very much Rosina for your account of the discussion about the
>> >Camino's history.
>> >Personally I wouldn't want to try to explain the Camino's Christian
>> history
>> >by reference to anything prior to it.  Or to try to put religious
>devotion
>> >down to something other than faith.  Faith is faith, like trees are
>trees.
>> >I have my own faith, but it does not harm to add some anthropoligical
and
>> >cultural interest to it.  In fact faith is only expanded when it is open
>> to
>> >wonder about the whole stream of human existence and consciousness, and
>> the
>> >history of human faith.
>> >Sally
>> >
>> >>        After the 8:00 p.m. pilgrims Mass in the Santo Domingo de la
>> >>Calzada
>> >>Cathedral a, multilingual,  priest invites those who may wish to do so
>to
>> >>remain and ask whatever they may want to know about the Camino and its
>> >>history.
>> >>The ensuing discussion is very friendly and informal.
>> >>        On the occassion that I was there an English pilgrim asked why
>> >>there
>> >>were so many theories about the Pre-Christian Camino and so many
>> inferences
>> >>of
>> >>magic influences and the like.
>> >>        The priest said that the historical evidence is either non-
>> existent
>> >>or
>> >>so scant that anyone can weave a theory about ancient routes.
>> >>As to magic influences and such, the priest opined that those who
cannot
>> >>comprehend the wonders of life (such as the call of the Camino upon so
>> many
>> >>millions of humans)  through the eyes of Faith try to explain them
>> through
>> >>magic or
>> >>attribute them to sorcery.  He then added that the difference between
>> Faith
>> >>and magic is, of course, love.
>> >>              It makes perfect sense to me.
>> >>Warm regards,
>> >>Rosina
>> >
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