pre-christian camino, etc.

[Karen Mallory]

Galen, you might be interested to know that quite a few Neanderthal sites
have been found along the northern and western coast of Spain and continuing
down the western coast of Portugal (including one, I believe, that had the
bones of a four year old child that had characteristics of both Neanderthal
and homo -oh dear, now I'm in shaky ground here - probably not sapiens but
one of the earlier modern man predecessors).  Anyway, the distribution of
the sites is roughly parallel to that of the Camino and implies some sort of
travel between them or at least a sequential move from one area to another.
There is a large, important site outside of Burgos at Atapuerca.

Early on, the  Camino was established at the northern reaches of the Moorish
occupation and was intended to bring European materials and culture into
Spain.  The pilgrims added considerably to this distribution and was,
eventually, an important contribution to the defeat of the Moors.

Hope this is of interest to you and gives you something to look into.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas season which meets whatever needs
you may have.  Peace.

Karen Mallory
----- Original Message -----
From: "Galen Wilkerson" <galen_wilkersonaYAHOO.COM>
To: <GOCAMINOaPETE.URI.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: pre-christian camino, etc.


> Hi,
>
> I certainly don't want to start a religious debate, since I think everyone
> is entitled to their own beliefs, and would only ever try to speak for
> myself :)  However, I'm not particularly religious, and have often been
> very amazed at nature, history, etc., although it has not had anything to
> do with either faith or sorcery, as far as I understand those.  Any
> feeling of 'magic' for me is related to my connection to nature and
> history as a human animal.  Sometimes the only word for this feeling is
> something like magic, although it certainly isn't broomsticks etc.
> haha :)
>
> I think one reason people (including me) aren't really into Shirley Mclain
> (and I haven't read her book), is that it's seen as hokey nonsense that
> didn't have to be shared with the world in a book.  Fine for her personal
> beliefs, etc., but not necessarily something the rest of us _have_ to try
> to relate to.  I guess it's hard not to have some kind of spiritual
> experience/feeling on such a walk, and it's up to everyone to find their
> own way to express it.  If they expect other people to relate to it, they
> have to do a good job explaining/expressing it.  If they are talking about
> things that many people will see as "far out", they have to do a VERY good
> job explaining it and relating it to other people's understanding,
> otherwise it will be seen as hokey nonsense.  I.e. if you are writing
> poetry or fiction, call it that. :)
>
> I didn't really understand Rosina's comment about love as the difference
> between faith and magic, but that's ok.  I don't think any of us here is
> trying to start a movement towards one or the other religion, etc. (I'm
> not) :)  I know that for me personally and for many people I met on the
> camino, the walk had nothing to do with any "faith" in any Christian
> sense, and in my opinion, the route was somewhat arbitrary, except for the
> fact that this particular route had a history and had some meaning for
> others.  I.e. I would have continued my walk in the pyrennees if it hadn't
> been quite so solitary with such a heavy pack.
>
> I'm interested in the camino from a dry non-dramatic historical /cultural/
> geographic/ anthropoligical standpoint.  I understand that some people
> believe a light descended in Santiago, etc.  and others may believe the
> Camino was pre-christian, magical etc., but I'm not really as interested
> in that beyond as a cultural phenomenon.
>
> I _imagine_ it is hard to find to find evidence about whatever trails,
> etc. were in northern Spain before christianity appeared.  I also
> _imagine_ that any such trails were relatively small and sometimes non-
> existent in comparison to the later huge pilgrimages and pilgrimage routes
> to Santiago, etc. from all across Europe.  However, this doesn't mean the
> early ones didn't exist.  It seems that populations were smaller, and
> people were not as organized.
>
> We know people were there before christianity, I'm not asking a mystical
> question, I'm asking a factual one, which I can rephrase:
>
> What information has been found about trails along the route of the
modern-
> day camino de santiago?  Is the camino running along a route that existed
> beforehand, and if so, what was it used for, etc?
>
> Sure, it's hard to find out about such things, but that's part of why it's
> interesting to me, and it certainly doesn't mean it was or wasn't there.
> (i.e. just because I can't see into the box doesn't mean there's nothing
> in the box, and it also doesn't mean the box has whatever I believe it
> does in it - so open the box and see!)
>
> Also, I agree with Sally that it is _more_ interesting when we add
> cultural and anthro. context.  For me, I _would_ try to explain the
> christian history by referring to something prior to it.  Many times,
> these cultural phenomena do not appear suddenly one day out of thin air,
> but are incorporated from the past.  I.e.  If there were routes along the
> current camino- trade, religious or otherwise - it would be interesting in
> understanding its coming about.  People in the past (and now) were
> obviously very mystical, and were willing to believe a light descended and
> create a myth in Santiago, and for instance it would be interesting to
> know if this myth was created by the Church or inhabitants partly to
> capitalize on trade routes or other trails that already existed.  Maybe it
> fit partly with vague history of celtic "holy" places along the coast,
> together with such trade routes  (For instance, evidently in the bronze
> age certain metals were available along the coastal mountains that weren't
> available in other places.), and when the church came along and changed
> the social organization, the cultural phenomenon of the camino was a
> natural result.
>
> Yes, all of this is just vague conjecture on my part, but I'm interested
> in whatever evidence has been found, etc.  Just because I am conjecturing
> doesn't mean there isn't something to it.  Personally I don't think we can
> ever know _exactly_ what things were like in the past (or even in the
> present), but can try to get a clearer and clearer picture, and that is
> fun and interesting and valuable.
>
> Anyway, I hope I haven't upset anyone.  It's just meant to be a relatively
> dry question.
>
> best,
> Galen
>
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:53 +0000, Sally Haden <hadense1948aHOTMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks very much Rosina for your account of the discussion about the
> >Camino's history.
> >Personally I wouldn't want to try to explain the Camino's Christian
> history
> >by reference to anything prior to it.  Or to try to put religious
devotion
> >down to something other than faith.  Faith is faith, like trees are
trees.
> >I have my own faith, but it does not harm to add some anthropoligical and
> >cultural interest to it.  In fact faith is only expanded when it is open
> to
> >wonder about the whole stream of human existence and consciousness, and
> the
> >history of human faith.
> >Sally
> >
> >>        After the 8:00 p.m. pilgrims Mass in the Santo Domingo de la
> >>Calzada
> >>Cathedral a, multilingual,  priest invites those who may wish to do so
to
> >>remain and ask whatever they may want to know about the Camino and its
> >>history.
> >>The ensuing discussion is very friendly and informal.
> >>        On the occassion that I was there an English pilgrim asked why
> >>there
> >>were so many theories about the Pre-Christian Camino and so many
> inferences
> >>of
> >>magic influences and the like.
> >>        The priest said that the historical evidence is either non-
> existent
> >>or
> >>so scant that anyone can weave a theory about ancient routes.
> >>As to magic influences and such, the priest opined that those who cannot
> >>comprehend the wonders of life (such as the call of the Camino upon so
> many
> >>millions of humans)  through the eyes of Faith try to explain them
> through
> >>magic or
> >>attribute them to sorcery.  He then added that the difference between
> Faith
> >>and magic is, of course, love.
> >>              It makes perfect sense to me.
> >>Warm regards,
> >>Rosina
> >
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