pre-christian camino, etc.

[Galen Wilkerson]

Hi,

I certainly don't want to start a religious debate, since I think everyone
is entitled to their own beliefs, and would only ever try to speak for
myself :)  However, I'm not particularly religious, and have often been
very amazed at nature, history, etc., although it has not had anything to
do with either faith or sorcery, as far as I understand those.  Any
feeling of 'magic' for me is related to my connection to nature and
history as a human animal.  Sometimes the only word for this feeling is
something like magic, although it certainly isn't broomsticks etc.
haha :)

I think one reason people (including me) aren't really into Shirley Mclain
(and I haven't read her book), is that it's seen as hokey nonsense that
didn't have to be shared with the world in a book.  Fine for her personal
beliefs, etc., but not necessarily something the rest of us _have_ to try
to relate to.  I guess it's hard not to have some kind of spiritual
experience/feeling on such a walk, and it's up to everyone to find their
own way to express it.  If they expect other people to relate to it, they
have to do a good job explaining/expressing it.  If they are talking about
things that many people will see as "far out", they have to do a VERY good
job explaining it and relating it to other people's understanding,
otherwise it will be seen as hokey nonsense.  I.e. if you are writing
poetry or fiction, call it that. :)

I didn't really understand Rosina's comment about love as the difference
between faith and magic, but that's ok.  I don't think any of us here is
trying to start a movement towards one or the other religion, etc. (I'm
not) :)  I know that for me personally and for many people I met on the
camino, the walk had nothing to do with any "faith" in any Christian
sense, and in my opinion, the route was somewhat arbitrary, except for the
fact that this particular route had a history and had some meaning for
others.  I.e. I would have continued my walk in the pyrennees if it hadn't
been quite so solitary with such a heavy pack.

I'm interested in the camino from a dry non-dramatic historical /cultural/
geographic/ anthropoligical standpoint.  I understand that some people
believe a light descended in Santiago, etc.  and others may believe the
Camino was pre-christian, magical etc., but I'm not really as interested
in that beyond as a cultural phenomenon.

I _imagine_ it is hard to find to find evidence about whatever trails,
etc. were in northern Spain before christianity appeared.  I also
_imagine_ that any such trails were relatively small and sometimes non-
existent in comparison to the later huge pilgrimages and pilgrimage routes
to Santiago, etc. from all across Europe.  However, this doesn't mean the
early ones didn't exist.  It seems that populations were smaller, and
people were not as organized.

We know people were there before christianity, I'm not asking a mystical
question, I'm asking a factual one, which I can rephrase:

What information has been found about trails along the route of the modern-
day camino de santiago?  Is the camino running along a route that existed
beforehand, and if so, what was it used for, etc?

Sure, it's hard to find out about such things, but that's part of why it's
interesting to me, and it certainly doesn't mean it was or wasn't there.
(i.e. just because I can't see into the box doesn't mean there's nothing
in the box, and it also doesn't mean the box has whatever I believe it
does in it - so open the box and see!)

Also, I agree with Sally that it is _more_ interesting when we add
cultural and anthro. context.  For me, I _would_ try to explain the
christian history by referring to something prior to it.  Many times,
these cultural phenomena do not appear suddenly one day out of thin air,
but are incorporated from the past.  I.e.  If there were routes along the
current camino- trade, religious or otherwise - it would be interesting in
understanding its coming about.  People in the past (and now) were
obviously very mystical, and were willing to believe a light descended and
create a myth in Santiago, and for instance it would be interesting to
know if this myth was created by the Church or inhabitants partly to
capitalize on trade routes or other trails that already existed.  Maybe it
fit partly with vague history of celtic "holy" places along the coast,
together with such trade routes  (For instance, evidently in the bronze
age certain metals were available along the coastal mountains that weren't
available in other places.), and when the church came along and changed
the social organization, the cultural phenomenon of the camino was a
natural result.

Yes, all of this is just vague conjecture on my part, but I'm interested
in whatever evidence has been found, etc.  Just because I am conjecturing
doesn't mean there isn't something to it.  Personally I don't think we can
ever know _exactly_ what things were like in the past (or even in the
present), but can try to get a clearer and clearer picture, and that is
fun and interesting and valuable.

Anyway, I hope I haven't upset anyone.  It's just meant to be a relatively
dry question.

best,
Galen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:52:53 +0000, Sally Haden <hadense1948aHOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

>Thanks very much Rosina for your account of the discussion about the
>Camino's history.
>Personally I wouldn't want to try to explain the Camino's Christian
history
>by reference to anything prior to it.  Or to try to put religious devotion
>down to something other than faith.  Faith is faith, like trees are trees.
>I have my own faith, but it does not harm to add some anthropoligical and
>cultural interest to it.  In fact faith is only expanded when it is open
to
>wonder about the whole stream of human existence and consciousness, and
the
>history of human faith.
>Sally
>
>>        After the 8:00 p.m. pilgrims Mass in the Santo Domingo de la
>>Calzada
>>Cathedral a, multilingual,  priest invites those who may wish to do so to
>>remain and ask whatever they may want to know about the Camino and its
>>history.
>>The ensuing discussion is very friendly and informal.
>>        On the occassion that I was there an English pilgrim asked why
>>there
>>were so many theories about the Pre-Christian Camino and so many
inferences
>>of
>>magic influences and the like.
>>        The priest said that the historical evidence is either non-
existent
>>or
>>so scant that anyone can weave a theory about ancient routes.
>>As to magic influences and such, the priest opined that those who cannot
>>comprehend the wonders of life (such as the call of the Camino upon so
many
>>millions of humans)  through the eyes of Faith try to explain them
through
>>magic or
>>attribute them to sorcery.  He then added that the difference between
Faith
>>and magic is, of course, love.
>>              It makes perfect sense to me.
>>Warm regards,
>>Rosina
>
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