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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes, that effort is underway with the UB study group and separately with Jens.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Regards,<br>
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<b>Rajan Bhakta</b><br>
z/OS XL C/C++ Compiler Technical Architect<br>
ISO C Standards Representative (Canada, USA), INCITS/C Chair<br>
C/C++ Compiler Development</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><a href="mailto:rbhakta@us.ibm.com"><span style="color:#0078D7">rbhakta@us.ibm.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">IBM</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="color:black">Jim Thomas <jaswthomas@sbcglobal.net><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 2:49</span><span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">PM<br>
<b>To: </b>RAJAN BHAKTA <rbhakta@us.ibm.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>cfp-interest@oakapple.net <cfp-interest@oakapple.net><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[EXTERNAL] Re: [cfp-interest 3410] [SC22WG14.29686] WG14 2025/02 meeting action item: CFP to look at N3447's change 3.2, addition 50'<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-line-height-alt:.75pt"><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">The addition for (informative) Annex J is intended to be an implication of what is already in 6.</span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:white"> </span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">6.</span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:white"> </span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">1
#5. It, per se, shouldn't have any effect on what users can safely do. I think Joseph’s idea to change the “shall be” to “is” in 6.</span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:white"> </span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">6.</span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:white"> </span><span style="font-size:1.0pt;color:white">1
#5 (and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">The addition for (informative) Annex J is intended to be an implication of what is already in 6.6.1 #5. It, per se, shouldn't have any effect on what users can safely do.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think Joseph’s idea to change the “shall be” to “is” in 6.6.1 #5 (and not add anything to Annex J) is reasonable. This suggests a broader effort to eliminate all uses of “shall” and “shall not” that apply to implementations instead of
users. Rajan, did you say that effort was in progress?<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">- Jim Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 12, 2025, at 9:49<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM, RAJAN BHAKTA <rbhakta@us.ibm.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In case people are not on the WG14 reflector.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#212121">Regards,<br>
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<b>Rajan Bhakta</b></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>From:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>owner-sc22wg14@open-std.org <owner-sc22wg14@open-std.org> on behalf of Joseph Myers <josmyers@redhat.com><br>
<b>Date:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Wednesday, March 12, 2025 at 11:40<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>AM<br>
<b>To:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>RAJAN BHAKTA <rbhakta@us.ibm.com><br>
<b>Cc:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>ISO C <sc22wg14@open-std.org><br>
<b>Subject:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>[EXTERNAL] [SC22WG14.29686] WG14 2025/02 meeting action item: CFP to look at N3447's change 3.2, addition 50'<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Wed, 12 Mar 2025, RAJAN BHAKTA wrote:<br>
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> We suggest using the following wording instead:<br>
><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> (50’) A floating expression is evaluated in the translation environment<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> with less arithmetic range or precision than if the expression were<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
> being evaluated in the execution environment.<br>
<br>
The effect of that would seem to be that no program can safely use<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
floating-point expressions in constant expressions at all, in case the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
implementation chooses to evaluate with less range or precision and so<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
give them undefined behavior.<br>
<br>
I think we need a demons or ghosts paper to replace this "shall be" (in<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
6.6.1) by "is" (or some similar change), since if there is UB here, there<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
should not be; the implementation should not be permitted to use less<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
range or precision in the translation environment.<br>
<br>
--<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
Joseph S. Myers<br>
josmyers@redhat.com</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">_______________________________________________<br>
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</span><a href="http://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/cfp-interest"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">http://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/cfp-interest</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
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