<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">Please ignore my previous message.<div><br></div><div>Clause 4 #2 says "If a "shall" or "shall not" requirement that appears outside of a constraint or runtime-constraint is violated, the behavior is undefined.” So violating the “shall” in the second sentence in 6.6.1 #5 (which is not a constraint) is UB.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe the action item should be to determine if N3447 change 3.2 addition (50’) is worded correctly.</div><div><br></div><div>6.6.1 #5 says: </div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div><div>An expression that evaluates to a constant is required in several contexts. If a floating expression is evaluated in the translation environment, the arithmetic range and precision shall be at least as great as if the expression were being evaluated in the execution environment.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>N3447 change 3.2 includes</div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>Add one new entry</div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>(50′) The value of a floating expression as determined in the translation environment in the context of the evaluation of a constant expression is outside the arithmetic range or has less precision than if it were evaluated in the execution environment (6.6).</div></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div>At best the wording is wrong. The value is “outside the arithmetic range” of what? </div><div><br></div><div>Referring to the precision of a value (vs a representation or an evaluation) can be confusing. </div><div><br></div><div>I don’t think it works to state the UB in terms of the value. For example, the value of x*y - x*y might not be 0 is if evaluated at translation time using fma, which 6.6.1 #5 allows.</div><div><br></div><div>How about</div><div><br></div><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div>(50’) A floating expression is evaluated in the translation environment with less arithmetic range or precision than if the expression were being evaluated in the execution environment.</div></blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div>- Jim Thomas</div><div> <div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 4, 2025, at 4:11 PM, Jim Thomas <jaswthomas@sbcglobal.net> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div style="overflow-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;">My understanding: 6.6 #5 disallows translation-time evaluation using less range or precision that would be used to evaluate the expression at execution time. Such translation-time evaluation is prohibited, not UB.<div><br></div><div>- Jim Thomas<br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfMessage"><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Mar 4, 2025, at 11:01 AM, RAJAN BHAKTA <rbhakta@us.ibm.com> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div><meta charset="UTF-8"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">One action item for our group came of the WG14 meeting as well:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><ul type="disc" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;"><li class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Look a N3447 change 3.2 addition (50') to see if it is valid to have as UB.<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt;"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">Regards,<br><br><b>Rajan Bhakta</b><br><br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(33, 33, 33);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;">cfp-interest mailing list</span><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="mailto:cfp-interest@oakapple.net" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">cfp-interest@oakapple.net</a><br style="caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><a href="http://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/cfp-interest" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">http://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/cfp-interest</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>cfp-interest mailing list<br>cfp-interest@oakapple.net<br>http://mailman.oakapple.net/mailman/listinfo/cfp-interest<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>