<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Mike, I’m missing your point. The proposed words are<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=""><blockquote dir="ltr" type="cite" style="padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; border-left-color: rgb(0, 0, 255); margin-right: 0px;" class=""><blockquote type="cite" style="border: medium none; padding: 0px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px;" class="">b) The results are not equivalent because they have different quantum exponents.</blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=""><br class=""></div></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class="">They’re not equivalent, so one cannot replace the other. No?</div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class="">- Jim Thomas</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 3, 2021, at 11:07 AM, Mike Cowlishaw <<a href="mailto:mfc@speleotrove.com" class="">mfc@speleotrove.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 11.00.9600.19431" class="">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space" class="">
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""><span class="665210418-03102021">If that's the case, maybe those uses should be
revisited.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""><span class="665210418-03102021"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""><span class="665210418-03102021">But if the meaning of equivalent is "<font size="3" face="Times New Roman" class="">one expression can replace the
other</font>", then it definitely should not be used here, because 1.5 and
1.50 certainly cannot be interchanged.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""><span class="665210418-03102021"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""><span class="665210418-03102021">Mike</span></font></div><br class="">
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr" class="" type="cite">
<div lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Jim Thomas
[<a href="mailto:jaswthomas@sbcglobal.net" class="">mailto:jaswthomas@sbcglobal.net</a>] <br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> 02 October 2021
22:21<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> Mike Cowlishaw<br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b> CFP<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> Re:
[Cfp-interest 2171] AI about new wording for unaccepted
change<br class=""></font><br class=""></div>
<div class=""></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Oct 1, 2021, at 5:54 AM, Mike Cowlishaw <<a href="mailto:mfc@speleotrove.com" class="">mfc@speleotrove.com</a>>
wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 11.00.9600.19431" class="">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space" class="">
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Depending on how 'value' is used elsewhere, I prefer (b)
because I think many people consider 'different values' to be synonymous
with 'do not compare equal' .. so (a) appears to be an
oxymoron.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class="">But (b) has the same problem, in truth, because the
primary sense of 'equivalent' is 'equal in
value'.</font></span></div></div></div></blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>The phrase “are not equivalent" is used six time in the same
subclause. The subclause is about expression transformations (optimizations).
The term “equivalent” is used to mean one expression can replace the other,
without any detectable behavior change. Also, the term “equivalent” is used in
other places in the C standard, with a broader meaning than “equal in value”,
for example in saying code sequences are equivalent.
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Jim Thomas<br class="">
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""></blockquote></div></div></div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space" class="">
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#00ffff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Perhaps:</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""> <font size="3" face="Times New Roman" class="">The results are
not<font color="#00ff00" class=""> the same</font> because they have
different quantum exponents.</font>
<div class=""><br class=""></div></font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class=""></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left" class=""><span class="748564712-01102021"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial" class="">Mike</font></span></div><br class="">
<blockquote style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir="ltr" type="cite" class="">
<div lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1" class="">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Cfp-interest [<a href="mailto:cfp-interest-bounces@oakapple.net" class="">mailto:cfp-interest-bounces@oakapple.net</a>]
<b class="">On Behalf Of </b>Jim Thomas<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b> 30 September 2021
23:47<br class=""><b class="">To:</b> CFP<br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b> [Cfp-interest 2171] AI about
new wording for unaccepted change<br class=""></font><br class=""></div>
<div class=""></div>Action item:
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">
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<div class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, sans-serif" class="">
Jim: Propose new wording for N2716's change that WG14 did not accept as
is.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><!--EndFragment--></blockquote></div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">The suggested change in question is:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">Page 450, paragraph 4, in the Example, change:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">The results are numerically equal, but have different quantum
exponents, hence have different values.</div></blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">to</div></blockquote>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">The results are equal, but have different quantum exponents,
hence have different values.</div></blockquote></blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">The immediately preceding text is:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">3 For expressions of decimal floating types, transformations must
preserve quantum exponents, as well as numerical values
(5.2.4.2.3). </div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">4 EXAMPLE 1. × x → x is valid for decimal floating-point
expressions x, but 1.0 × x → x is not: </div>
<div class="">1. × 12.34 = (+1, 1, 0) × (+1, 1234, −2) = (+1, 1234, −2) =
12.34 </div>
<div class="">1.0 × 12.34 = (+1, 10, −1) × (+1, 1234, −2) = (+1, 12340, −3)
= 12.340</div></blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">A minimal change that responds to the reported WG14 discussion
[Cfp-interest 2128] would be:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">a) The results compare equal, but have different quantum exponents,
hence have different values.</div></blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">However, we haven’t used “compare equal” in the subclauses. I think a
more direct statement would be:</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class="">b) The results are not equivalent because they have different
quantum exponents.</div>
<div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote>
<div class=""><br class=""></div>Please let me know ASAP if you prefer a) or b) or something
else.
<div class=""><br class=""></div>
<div class="">- Jim Thomas<br class="">
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote><br class="">
<blockquote style="BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 40px; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px" type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote><br class=""></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div>
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